Katie O'Dunne 00:01
I was so entrenched because of the compulsions, that I was engaging in both physical and mental for such a long time that it was hard to kind of break apart some of the beliefs that I had. But I got better, I really did, I got better. And when I got better, I didn't want to be quiet about my story anymore. And that was a huge shift. For me. I was watching students from all different faith backgrounds that were fearful of speaking up about their mental health and faith communities. And I felt like I had an obligation as their chaplain to say, actually, these past few years, I've been seeking mental health treatment at night, and you can too and it's okay. And that was terrifying. It was it was what are they going to think of me in this public role? My mentor told me I would lose everything in ministry, and I didn't. It was the opposite of everything. I thought I started hearing from families. Oh, Chaplain K, we can we can finally tell you what's going on. Can we tell you about our child's diagnosis? Oh, and how do we talk to their pastor, their rabbi, their Imam, it was nothing like what I had expected at all.
Laura Howe 01:15
From Hope Made Strong, this is The Care Ministry podcast, a show about equipping ministry leaders, and transforming communities through care. Supporting those in your church and community not only changes individuals' lives, but it grows and strengthens the church. But we want to do that without burning out. So listen in, as we learn about tools, strategies, and resources that will equip your team and strengthen hope.
I'm Laura Howe, and we are continuing the series during Mental Health Awareness Month. And we are talking today about OCD. And I'm curious, what does OCD mean to you? Does it mean that you can't go to bed without a clean counter or maybe that your closet has to be color coded and organized? Or that being on time is already being five minutes late? So or maybe even that your food doesn't touch? Well, let me tell you that none of these things is having OCD. OCD is an acronym that stands for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and not surprisingly, it is within the category of anxiety disorders. It can impact people from all different backgrounds and it's not gender specific. However, two-thirds of people actually develop this disorder as a teen or a younger adult. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is made up of actually two different parts, one obsessions and the second one compulsions, which can cause significant stress in someone's life, like a lot of overwhelm, obsessions, these are unwanted or repetitive thoughts, urges or images that just don't go away. And they can cause a lot of anxiety. For example, I was supporting a beautiful lady. She was a senior, who was struggling with her recent move into a retirement home she wasn't eating well, she was agitated and disruptive in group settings. Now, at first people suspected dementia or that she just wasn't transitioning well to this new environment or this new living space. But after a psychiatric consult, she was actually diagnosed with OCD. And her primary obsessions is that she would accidentally hurt someone when walking by them. Or and this was especially prevalent in the dining room, and she was worried that she would be who she would drop her knife or spill her food or hot food on other people. And these thoughts caused her an incredible amount of anxiety and stress that that came out as behaviors that she's tried to avoid it and and prevent herself from from hurting someone which she wasn't going to but this was the obsession thought.
Now the second part of OCD is compulsions. These are actions or repetitive behaviors meant to reduce the anxiety caused by the obsessions. Now it's important to understand that compulsions are a way to cope with the obsession, the person will likely experience a lot of distress if they can't complete these compulsions. And, and I saw this a lot in with the individual that I was working with who had cleanliness compulsions, so the repetitive behaviors weren't references that he wanted to be clean, but he had to wash his hands and do count different things and clean different ways and use different chemicals. He had to do those things because that was the only thing that reduce the anxiety of these obsessive thoughts. And these compulsions can be harmful. This gentleman that I was supporting, he would clean his hands until his skin was worn completely away and we saw his flesh and even down to the bone in some areas. This disorder isn't to be taken lightly or or undermine it or minimized. But like all mental illnesses. This disorder does not define the identity of the person, nor does it determine their future. Reverend Katie O’ Dunne, our guest on today's podcast is diagnosed with OCD. And while this disorder touches every corner of her life, it doesn't define her. Katie is an interfaith chaplain for individuals all over the world. She is an ultra marathon runner with a goal of completing 50 races. She's a doctoral student and founder of Faith and Mental Health Integrative Services. It's an organization helping individuals with OCD live into their faith as they navigate treatment. Katie grew up near Baltimore into a loving Christian family and went to a private school but had an arts focus. And and this focus drew people from all over the area that had different backgrounds and this exposure to different faiths as a young child has been instrumental in her work as an interfaith chaplain.
Katie O'Dunne 06:06
Yeah, and I think I didn't realize again, how neat it was until later on getting into interfaith work and looking back and saying, Oh, wait, when I was seven, I was, you know, doing this with my friends temple, or jamatkhana. So it's very, very cool. Yeah.
Laura Howe 06:22
So you said you grew up in a Christian family in a Christian home? And that's, that's cool. Are you an only child?
Katie O'Dunne 06:31
Yes. So I'm an only child. I grew up in the Episcopal Church from from birth and had two amazing, awesome parents who were incredibly supportive throughout my journey, and particularly throughout my OCD journey that I know we'll talk more about today. But it's for me, even before they knew what that looked like they they saw this child who was very focused on being perfect, and I'm not doing anything wrong. And even from an early age, my parents always talk about, you know, as a five or six year old, I would call them into my room at night to confess worries that I had of things that I thought I did wrong and kindergartener in first grade. And in retrospect, I am so incredibly thankful for for them and their support through that in the midst of times that they didn't know exactly what was going on for me, but but grew up in again, very loving household and grew up in the church and eventually went to college at Ilan in North Carolina, and had no idea that I would end up getting into ministry whatsoever going through that experience.
Laura Howe 07:38
What did you go to school for?
Katie O'Dunne 07:40
Yeah, so I was a, I was a division one athlete. So at that point, I was really focused also on cross country and track and then went to school started as an Exercise Sports Science major, and then shifted to communications and then shifted to mass. I think. We did the whole spectrum. And then I ended up as a double major in Human Services and Religious Studies before going to
Laura Howe 08:05
What?? That is a mind twist so athletics, to math to Human Services. Yeah, what drew you to Human Services?
Katie O'Dunne 08:18
Yeah. So um, when I first started at Elan, I had put everything into into running and kind of my collegiate career that I had all of these big hopes and dreams for. And I actually broke my foot, my very first week of, of that, and was in a really difficult roommate situation at the time, too, and was having just it was it was really, it was really tough and had a very intense coach who was not very excited that I was injured. And finally, at that point, found, actually a church that I felt really connected with, it was kind of getting me through everything on a weekly basis. And there was a particular Sunday where my coach said, oh, you can't go to church because we have a recruit, and you need to be there for kind of the recruiting visit. And I ended up going and being told that because I was injured my crutches couldn't fit in the van of where we were going and that I wasn't welcome and that I would need to crouch back to my dorm. It was like a mile and a half. So I ended up missing the church experience that I had been looking forward to and I was like crouching back in the heat, like a mile and a half is like this new college student injured and was just so upset and ended up in the midst of that passing another church, which actually was a UCC church was later where I became ordained and they were getting ready to have a service start. So I went inside and in that, through that experience, ended up meeting some pretty amazing people, including someone who invited me to go and do cross country coaching with a group of, of individuals in foster care and experiencing poverty and I'm It really transformed what I wanted to do was the work with that kid with those kids that I really kind of found God in a different way and in a way of service and was asked to go in and preach about the church that I had been going to about that experience. And I remember standing up there and saying, like, ah, like, Okay, actually, there's something here, I feel a call here to really support individuals who are experiencing hardship and their spiritual journey. So when I changed all my majors to Religious Studies Human Services and never looked back, yeah,
Laura Howe 10:33
This incredible an off chance that you were pushed away or rejected from what your goal talk about, like close a door, Lord, and, and open another door, like that was literally the card or the van door slam shut, and then the church down the street opened, like that is the coolest, you'd never hear those stories, or maybe I don't often hear those.
Katie O'Dunne 10:59
It's, you know, I don't often get to talk about it. So I appreciate that you ask? Because it's it's neat to think like, wow, that was a long time ago. And it's so neat that all of that, you know, looking back has been so just instrumental in where I am now. And like you said, those doors, you have no idea what's closing, what's opening.
Laura Howe 11:18
God's faithful isn't me. Yeah. Regardless, like, you were focused and extremely talented in the track and field area. But you had so much life and hope in Utah to offer others. And so I think it was really cool that God something planted something in you and saw something in you. I'm curious, when you were at that church, were there mentors or people in your life that helped foster that, because that's a that's a big leap from, you know, feeling pushed out of the athletics and into supporting, supporting those who are marginalized and impoverished. And and,, I would think that you would need some coaching or did you always have that innate giving and supportive approach in you?
Katie O'Dunne 12:12
Yeah, I mean, I think a couple of different areas there were there were such amazing supporters in my life at that point, were one when I jumped into, honestly, the Religious Studies program, I got really connected to the chaplaincy staff at the school, which very much helped me later down the line, but also my Religious Studies professors, which foster this sense of, really what I had been raised in of caring about other faith traditions, and caring about just the beautiful ways that God works in the world. And their support and confidence in me to be able to share that with others was was really helpful. And then it was also, you know, despite difficulties with my running career, I continued and actually came back I actually ended up having like six stress fractures throughout college. So it was quite a, quite an athletic journey, but ended up doing really well and by the end of my college career, became the captain for for the team and felt so supported also by the other athletes. And even though I had kind of a difficult coaching experience, my teammates became really family, and also folks who really gave me the confidence to continue to pursue ministry in ways that I really didn't think that I could or didn't know that I was called to. So having those mentors both on the church and on the faith side, but also just in the community, it was so essential for me.
Laura Howe 13:39
That's so beautiful. That's cool. So you you know, just because you had a hard start didn't mean you have to walk away from those passions because you in fact have completed is it 50 ultra marathons is that my reading that right?
Katie O'Dunne 13:54
Oh, I have not done all of them yet. So it's so kind of how the athletic side when I finished my collegiate career and got into competitive triathlon. So I raced the short course draft legal triathlon circuit for a while and got to race internationally as an amateur but it did did well and enjoyed that and then got into Ironman for a while and raced, I think seven halves and three full Ironman races. And then over the pandemic was going for a lot of stuff personally and just needed kind of a new sports adventure and got into ultra marathon which so I race anything over, essentially over 30 miles all on trails. And with the work I was doing with OCD realized it was really cool opportunity to partner and be able to race around the country but also fundraise for individuals seeking treatment. So I'm not done at all, but I'm in the process of racing 50 ultra marathons in 50 states and in each state fundraising for someone seeking evidence treatment for OCD.
Laura Howe 15:01
That is amazing. Oh my gosh. So my like couch to five situation right now seems so minimal, but hey, it's something I'm closer to the couch side than the five side and I'm gonna truly be honest.
Katie O'Dunne 15:18
You know what’s funny?? I know this isn't our topic for today, but that was my graduate research the first time around was was reimagining, running and endurance athletics as a spiritual practice. And I think, however far we're going or if it's walking, if it's running, whatever it is, there is such an element of being outside and with the divine.
Laura Howe 15:45
Yeah, the body-mind connection is quite amazing. And when you're out in nature, the mindfulness walking or the mindfulness, exercise is really quite, quite powerful. I know that anytime that I'm super stressed or overwhelmed, doing anything physical like that outside definitely is a relief, for sure, some self care definitely on the list of self care activities. Now, you spoke a little bit about your experience of the OSI but I would love to hear a little bit more because you're clearly a high achiever, you're clearly driven and motivated. And when someone thinks of OCD, you think of a lot of debilitating struggles. And so would you be able to share a little bit about your journey from you know, diagnosis and going through and discovering, you know, your passion and where God's leading you.
Katie O'Dunne 16:35
So it's always so interesting when I tell my life story. And you know, we're talking about this, this whole side with ministry and with cross country and things like that. And I almost feel like I had two lives running parallel to one another, and kind of the OCD life most people didn't know about, because I was really, really good at masking. And I was very much miserable while looking like I had it all together for enlargement.
Laura Howe 17:02
We don’t know what that is like, no, nobody else does that, you know, put on a brave face while they walk into church or work or, you know, oh, my gosh, Katie, that is relatable to everyone.
Katie O'Dunne 17:17
So that was I mean, that was that was my experience. And I mean, actually thinking about what I was going through. I mean, I can remember signs and symptoms of OCD as early as age eight. And I used to one of the first things that I remember was being in third grade and having a teacher talk about the sun potentially getting too close to the Earth and something bad happening. And a big component of OCD for me has to do with with over responsibility. And with really taking on and making sure that everyone not just in my family, but in the world is safe. So as an eight-year-old and this did not make sense but it did in my eight year old mind, I felt like I needed to touch things in a particular order or do things in a particular way, so that the sun didn't get too close to the Earth, so that I could protect the entire planet.
That's a lot of pressure on an eight year old. Yeah and so that was really the first piece and then as I got older, I really started to take responsibility for for everything. I lost my aunt to cancer, and I thought it was my fault. I thought you know, if I didn't do things, right, that or if I wasn't perfectly nice, or didn't do things perfectly, that bad things were gonna happen. And as I got older, it kind of shifted and morphed. I went through phases related to contamination and related to checking ovens, stoves, locks doors. And by the time I hit seminary, it was actually pretty, it was pretty intense. I was I was at Candler School of Theology at Emory. And I didn't want anyone to know what I was experiencing. And I actually was spending most of my nights where I wasn't sleeping because I was going and checking ovens, stoves, locks, parking garages, driving back to churches, where I was interning to make sure candles were blown out to make sure things wouldn't burn down, and it wouldn't be my fault. I mean, it was, it was pretty, it was pretty intense. And at the time, I shared with a mentor that I thought I might have OCD. And was told like, you can't tell anybody, because you won't pass your psych evaluations for ministry and you're an up and coming ministry leader you you can't tell anybody that so I didn't. Yeah, it was pretty, pretty awful. So I didn't get treatment, I continued to kind of shove that down despite the fact that I was miserable. And probably by that point, doing 12 plus hours of compulsions a day but masking and making sure nobody had any idea how much of my life it was taking, and didn't get help. And then actually went into my first role in ministry as an academy chaplain for 2700 awesome kiddos from different faith traditions and Atlanta, that was very much a passion for me. And because I wasn't treated, my OCD exploded and latched on to every.
Laura Howe 20:18
Yeah because the responsibility, the natural responsibility of that role of connecting and supporting and walking alongside students is heavy in and of itself, let alone when you're struggling with these, you know, the the thoughts that ruminating and overpowering thoughts, that would be really, really hard. Goodness, were you able to seek support?
Katie O'Dunne 20:41
Not for a long tim, my first few years in that role. It things were getting really challenging, but I was particularly I particularly felt shame because a lot of the intrusive thoughts and things that I was experiencing, like like most of OCD latched on to the things that were the most important to me. So I worried you know, what if? What if I'm actually harmful to my students? What if I'm not a good chaplain? What if I'm saying something inappropriate and forgetting about it? What if I hit someone walking down the hallway and forgot? What if I ran over someone with my car and just don't remember, I mean, it was all sorts of things related to morality, but also to spiritual life. And I thought very much if I shared that, that they wouldn't want me to be a chaplain for kids. So how can I possibly get treatment. But I was very fortunate a few years in that I got to a low enough point that I did finally seek treatment, and was very lucky to find an OCD specialist who, which isn't always common, it's something with the IOCDF, we talked about a lot. It can take folks on average, 17 years to get effective treatment, which is absurd, but found someone who was knowledgeable in exposure and response prevention, and started engaging in in treatment for the first time, which I'm happy to go into. But do you want to note, I think the interesting piece of my story there is I got better really quickly with treatment. But I thought, oh, OCD is gone. I never have to worry about it ever again. Okay, great.
Laura Howe 22:22
And how did that go?
Katie O'Dunne 22:25
No, well, oh, so and I tell them all the time, you know, it's, I now believe it's a part of my life. And we get to approach our life each and every day so that it doesn't impact us. It doesn't impact my life. But I have OCD. And that's that's what it is. But what ended up happening, I was no longer it was like, great, everything's fine and had back to back to back tragedies in the school that I was really responsible for caring for where I lost individuals to mental health struggles that I was very close with. And I was doing funerals for teachers and funerals for kids. And my OCD from the responsibility standpoint, ended up latching on. And I started blaming myself in tangible ways for different tragedies, and actually got to the point where I was so concerned that what if different things were my fault that I was serving as a chaplain all day and getting home and almost calling the police on myself for crimes I hadn't committed, just in case somehow something bad in the community was my fault.
Laura Howe 23:26
Wow, I think I think it's important to note that these were real for you, even though they weren't logical. They didn't make sense. They weren't true or accurate. In your body, and in your mind, they felt extremely real. And that would be very intense. Imagine feeling the weight and the responsibility of someone's life, and a community tragedy on one on you on one person. And and I just think, how, how did you continue on how, what, what pulled you through because those must have been dark moments.
Katie O'Dunne 24:11
I look back and folks asked me, how did you still get up in and I really, I really don't know. And I think there is a God aspect to that too because I just don't know how I would have possibly done that. On my own. I worked through this entire period, despite being as sick as I was, and no one had any idea which, for better or for worse. But it's it did. I mean, OCD is ego dystonic it's it's not logical, it opposes the things that we that we care so deeply about, but it felt real. And I had so much shame because I felt like I was this person that everyone saw as this happy school chaplain, you know, saving and working with kids and that internally, I felt like there was something different going on and it was It was so it was so tough. But thankfully, really the shift for me was I went back into treatment with the therapist who very much had helped me that first time and it was a tough road. I was so entrenched because of the compulsions, that I was engaging in both physical and mental for such a long time that it was hard to kind of break apart some of the beliefs that I had. But I got better, I really did, I got better and when I got better, I didn't want to be quiet about my story anymore. And that was a huge shift for me. I was watching students from all different faith backgrounds that were fearful of speaking up about their mental health and faith communities. And I felt like I had an obligation as their chaplain to say, actually, these past few years, I've been seeking mental health treatment at night, and you can too, and it's okay. And that was terrifying. It was it was what are they going to think of me in this public role? My mentor told me I would lose everything in ministry. And I didn't. It was the opposite of everything. I thought I started hearing from families. Oh, Chaplain K, we can we can finally tell you what's going on. Can we tell you about our child's diagnosis? Oh, and how do we talk to their pastor, their rabbi, their Imam, it was nothing like what I had expected at all.
Laura Howe 26:22
Wow. That's so beautiful. So I want to know, what does it look like? What does getting better look like?
Katie O'Dunne 26:31
Ah, would it be helpful to talk about treatment a little bit for OCD?
Laura Howe 26:35
I think so I think because this is not something there's so much. I don't know, if stigma is the right word around misunderstanding of OCD, I think it's become the word and the terminologies become very flippant. And so I think that it would be really helpful, I think, to for you to be able to describe it a bit more detail.
Katie O'Dunne 26:53
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, my biggest pet peeve is when OCD is used as an adjective or used as a joke or a cute quirk. And I always tell folks, it's not because I can't take a joke or because I can't find humor. It's literally because it's preventing every time we use it in that way, it's preventing individuals from knowing what OCD is, and seeking treatment that very much can save their life. And OCD is absolutely debilitating with obsessions that oppose everything someone believes in. OCD latches on to everything they care about, and really twist it making them wonder, what if I'm a bad person? What if I'm in danger? What if I'm a danger to someone else and anything like that? And it really then there are compulsions that we do to try to feel better. And some of those Yes, are physical, like what you see in the media. But a lot of those can be mental as well, that might be ruminating, that might be going back over something in your head, that might be mental reassurance, mental rituals. And for me, that was a lot of my experience. And so their obsessions and compulsions treatment targets all of that. So evidence based treatment for OCD. The current gold standard is exposure and response prevention, which is under the umbrella of cognitive behavioral therapy, and with that individuals are exposed to the things that they are the most fearful of, while prevented from engaging in the rituals or engaging in the responses. So you're leaning in and it sounds terrifying. It is terrifying to say that sounds like an awful day. You're never like, yeah, it's exposure day like. Nooo,
Laura Howe 28:38
You're doing the very thing that makes you most uncomfortable and most anxious. And then you're prevented from doing the very thing that makes you feel better. Wow. Oh my gosh, that sounds like a really hard work.
Katie O'Dunne 28:54
It is really hard work. And it's life saving. It is absolutely life saving. And the core of of treatment is really about embracing uncertainty. And individuals with OCD struggle with with uncertainty, it feels like well, I have to be certain that I'm a good person or that God is happy with me or that nothing bad is going to happen in the world. And it's about embracing uncertainty, in the sense that every other person on the planet embraces uncertainty, being okay with that, while having radical faith that you can still move forward in a meaningful and beautiful way. And that's, I think there are actually a lot of a lot of ties to faith with that where I see getting better as it's not that you don't have obsessions anymore. It's not that you don't have intrusive thoughts because everybody has intrusive thoughts. intrusive thoughts are just thoughts, but you don't get quite as stuck. You're able to continue to move towards your values, because you can accept uncertainty because you can sit with that level of discount. I'm for where faith again, is such a huge core of that of saying, Yeah, okay, things can be really scary. I feel scared right now. But I have faith in this moment that I can move towards everything meaningful to me. And that's actually ironically, that's my doctoral research is on reimagining ERP as a spiritual practice across faith traditions.
Laura Howe 30:21
You mentioned that OCD latches on to the things that you're most attached to, or you're most connected to. And for many people, that's their faith. That's part of who their identity is. And and it can distort what is truth or distort what is what is. What is there. And so how does one navigate their faith? When, when that's who they are. So that's where they want to lean into. But that also triggers so much stress and anxiety with the OCD and the obsessions.
Katie O'Dunne 31:01
Oh, my goodness. So this is this is what I ended up giving kind of my my life to, after the story that I shared with you all here today, it's, I started working in advocating for OCD. And at that point, I really didn't know that for so many individuals, OCD latched on directly to their faith traditions and practices. And when I started advocating, I actually started hearing from different clinicians in different parts of the world, because I had taught comparative religions forever and worked as an interfaith chaplain and knew ERP really well of just folks calling and saying, hey, well, I have this case. And I wonder, What's faith? And what's OCD? Can you help us like, pick this apart? And I started to learn about what's called religious velocity as a subtype of OCD. And it's I always set tell folks, OCD comes in lots of different flavors. OCD is OCD is OCD, and is irrelevant. It's probably as unique as the individuals who experience it, right?
Yeah, it's exactly right. It's gonna be it just shows up in the flavor that is the most important to you. So of course, like you said, it's going to latch on to faith. And I see this in every faith tradition under the sun where individuals start to have obsessions about whether they're faithful enough whether they're good enough whether they accidentally committed the unpardonable sin, whether they ritually washed appropriately, whether they were totally focused during prayer, whether God is mad at them, I mean, anything related to faith, faith practices kind of comes up. And then the compulsions that individuals engage in are trying to make sure that they're doing everything perfectly, that they're being absolutely faithful. And the tricky part is, unfortunately, a lot of, of ministry leaders might not be aware that that's what's going on. Because on the surface, it can look like oh, that person is just praying a lot, or they are so deep in their faith, this is awesome.
Laura Howe 33:09
Or they're serving,or they showing up, and they're volunteering their part of everything, every opportunity to be at the church. Yes.
Katie O'Dunne 33:16
Yeah. And it's not, that's actually not why it's not because they're, you know, it trying to engage in their faith. It's they're responding to the fear, the guilt, the anxiety, the shame, the urgency, of OCD. And I'll share with folks that when you're doing rituals, that look like faith and service of OCD, we're actually almost worshipping OCD, as opposed to worshiping God. And it's, it can be challenging to pick that apart, it can be really scary. ERP is really effective. But it can be really tough to lean into things that relate to faith that are really scary. And that's actually the work I do full time now. So I work with cases all over the world and help separate for individuals and across faith traditions as a chaplain, but also as an OCD specialist. Where is faith? And whereas OCD? And how can we engage in treatment in service of getting back to our faith in a value driven way, as opposed to continuing to worship the OCD? And that there's so many nuances to this, but the biggest thing I'll tell folks with that, and especially for ministry leaders in terms of picking this apart is thinking what is what is the function of what someone is doing? What is the function of what they're engaging in? Is it in service of meaning, and connection and joy with God? Or is it I am so scared to not do this thing. It feels so urgent, I feel like I have to or something horrific is going to happen. And that's a good way to start to to parse that out a little bit of Well, are we doing this in fact You've heard of connecting with the divine or responding to OCD.
Laura Howe 35:06
For those who are listening who are trying to navigate this, they're not specialists there, they may or may not have lived experience with with OCD and anxiety. And it can be really overwhelming. People don't want to say the wrong thing. They don't want to make it worse. They don't want to step outside of their role and function as care provider, pastor, supporter. And so what are some ways or that we can be inclusive or that we can be supportive? Or that we can provide that wraparound care? With out stepping into an area that we're not trained for?
Katie O'Dunne 35:46
Oh, that is such a good question. And I have resources I definitely will offer for the podcast as well. But I think from the Ministry perspective, one is always affirming the individual and the struggle that they're experiencing. But if you even even based on this small amount that you're learning right now from this podcast for like, Hmm, someone might be doing something in service of OCD, if someone is continuing to come and ask you questions related to reassurance related to if they've done something right in their faith practices, reassurance or accommodating in any way is actually feeding the disorder. So what I would really encourage folks in ministry to do, it doesn't mean that you have to that you have to treat or that you have to diagnose. But if you have that little piece that's like, Hmm, this person has asked me for reassurance of Lot, or it feels like they're really engaging from a space of fear, or they're doing things in a really repetitive way, it might be a really great opportunity for you to connect with a local OCD specialist or a local affiliate to see if you might be able to collaborate or might be able to make a referral. I never think it's harmful to ask that person. Why are you doing this? And is it does it feel challenging for you right now, from a place of love to be able to say, if they do say, Yeah, this is really hard for me right now. I think I might have some ideas. Is it possible that we could talk to someone? Is it possible that we could talk to a professional.
Iit's, you know, there's so many I work with the international OCD Foundation, we have local affiliates in every single States, and Canada, their stuff is branching out as well. But we also have a great resource page on the iocdf website, where we specifically have resources for clergy on what clergy can do, how you might be able to recognize in your congregation how to show up. We also have a faith in OCD conference with a track for for, for ministry, leaders of all types to be able to think about well, how do we how do we show up for folks who might be navigating? And I mean, I'll put out there too, if you are thinking, This person might have OCD, I'm not sure how do I respond? That is actually what I work with faith communities on all the time I train faith communities in OCD and religious velocity. Send me an email and say, Hey, Katie, this is this is what I'm seeing. How in the world do I respond? Or what do you think? And I really
Laura Howe 38:19
Be careful you may get a lot of emails, Katie,
Katie O'Dunne 38:21
I get probably hundreds a day already. And I do my best to get free stuff in a timely manner. But I do I mean, I get this from folks all the time of even, you know, from every faith community under the sun, Hey, I see someone in my congregation doing this, what do I do? Please reach out? And if I can't answer it, I'll help you find someone that that
Laura Howe 38:39
Awesome. When thinking of how prevalent this is, in our communities and congregations, like you said, you went years without anyone knowing and so there is likely, if we have a congregation of a couple 100 people, then there's likely someone in our congregation that does struggle with this. How common is this? How common is OCD? How is it important for clergy are people pastors or faith leaders to be able to to know about OCD?
Katie O'Dunne 39:14
Yeah, so statistically, we say that about 2% of the population has OCD. But it is greatly under diagnosed in part because many clinicians or even specialists who think they know OCD don't necessarily and have trouble recognizing obsessions and compulsions that they aren't familiar with or have trouble recognizing internal compulsions. So vastly under diagnosed but but regardless, there are I can pretty much guarantee you you have a handful at the very least a handful of folks in your congregation who are navigating this, and especially because they're involved in a faith community, there's a pretty good chance that it's latching on to their faith because that's what's important to them because they're showing up in your community. So it is important And one of the things that I've I struggle with is I actually think this is something that should be taught in in seminaries. So I know that's a piece I'm working with a psychologist on right now to do some seminary courses. And we're also working on developing a measure specific for clergy so you can have a really quick tested like five question thing. That is amazing! Yeah. So we're hoping we're trying to get a grant for this right now. So we could test it and do a whole study around it, the idea would be able to have clergy have a really quick measure to say, or to have ministry leaders have a quick measure to say, Oh, is this what someone is experiencing? But it's absolutely something that that should be taught that we should be aware of? And that even in the simplest form that we should be mindful of? Why someone is doing the practices they're doing? Are they doing them in a different way than they did before? Do you have a group of people who are doing things to an extreme? And if you ask them, Why is it because they feel fearful, that's a really good place to start and to start thinking about, well, maybe there might be something different going on here. And then then the faith piece, and I want ministry leaders to know that encouraging someone to engage in treatment, even if it's leaning into scary stuff. I've never once seen someone, then I don't know shift away from their faith or decide that it's really actually been the opposite. It's individuals reconnect with their faith or move towards their faith and value driven ways because they actually have space to worship God as opposed to being so dictated by the fear of the disorder.
Laura Howe 41:41
Looking back, I wonder if if you can write yourself a letter, if you can send yourself a voicemail back when, you know, at the beginning stages, I don't know if you the beginning was when you were eighth or the beginning, when you were in the beginning is when you were first sitting in the in the pews of that of that UCC church. But if you could write yourself a letter or send yourself a voicemail, what would you tell your younger self?
Katie O'Dunne 42:09
Oh, I love this question. So much. Clients actually a lot with their OCD journey, there would be definitely something to be effective there, there will be parts of your journey that will be really, really challenging. But you are enough, you were created to do beautiful things. And even in the midst of the moments that seem really challenging and really broken. God will give you an opportunity to create beauty out of that brokenness. And I think just just that knowledge for my younger self to know that every obsession that every compulsion, as challenging as it is that there will be an opportunity to turn pain into purpose and brokenness into beauty and profound ways. For myself and for my faith, but also for for a lot of other amazing folks around me.
Laura Howe 43:07
Love it. Love it. Thank you, Katie so much for being here sharing your story, and being willing to serve. Thank you.
Katie O'Dunne 43:16
Thank you for having me.
Laura Howe 43:18
Hey, thanks for listening. If you are interested in learning more about OCD or connecting with Katie, make sure to check out those show notes. We'll have all the links you need in there. For this during this whole mental health awareness month, we are speaking to those with lived experience, as I think it's important to listen and learn from those who have truly walked in the shoes of those who suffer from mental health. This is both a self reflective moment and an opportunity to apply what we've learned regardless of where you're at. I hope you have enjoyed this episode. And if you did, are you able to write a review? This actually really helps people find the podcast more easily and and tells others how it's been helpful for you. Well, I appreciate you so much. Thanks for connecting. I hope you have a fantastic week.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
